2007-2008 Season Daisuke's new program

Off course, we have several Gala during the off-season, however, especially, I'm thinking of Daisuke's new program at first.
Here is my expectation elements for new free program for him.

Free Program Total basic score: 69.4
1)The first half ---quad flip, triple Axel, quad toe-triple loop,
2)Latter half---- triple lutz, triple Axel-double loop, triple flip, triple lutz-double loop-double loop, triple salchow

I'd like to see Daisuke's combination quad-triple jump again.
This is very hard program! If it is possible, he needs a lot of power and should control his speed. I hope that he can do it.
Daisuke said "If I get a medal, I have to do quad jump twice."

もちろん、オフシーズンにはGALAがありますが、私は特に高橋選手の新しいプログラムについて考えています。
というわけで、早速新しいプログラムのジャンプのエレメンツを予想してみました。

フリープログラム　合計基礎点：69.4点
1)前半--4F, 3A, 4T-3Lo
2）後半--3Lz, 3A-2Lo, 3F, 3Lz-2Lo-2Lo, 3S

高橋選手の4-3のジャンプがまた見たいので入れてみましたが、とてもハードなプログラムなので、もっと筋力やスピード制御が必要でしょうね。でも、高橋選手ならやれると思っています。
高橋選手は「メダルを取るには4回転を2回入れなければ。」と言っていましたね。

Leode wrote:

Free Program Total basic score: 69.4
1)The first half ---quad flip, triple Axel, quad toe-triple loop,
2)Latter half---- triple lutz, triple Axel-double loop, triple flip, triple lutz-double loop-double loop, triple salchow

Quad toe-triple LOOP?!?! Can he do that?? I'd rather see him go for "the usual" 4T-3T, beautifully and clean. He could then put the 3L on the lutz or, and I think it'd be better, on the flip (he seems more secure on the 3F than on the 3Lz).

That said, what I really want is a strong choreography. Phantom of the Opera was a bit empty, but now that he's got the jumps "fixed", I hope he can add more choreography...
I also hope he'll have faster and better spins, and that his step sequences will be as terrific as usual!

I'm not so much technically inclined as other figureskating fans, but if I'm allowed to say anything on the technical aspects, then realistically speaking I'm not sure if he can incorporate 4t-3x (be x either T or Lo) combo next season. His jumps have been more stable/controlled this season (at least after Skate Canada) than before, but it appears to me his 3-3 combos are still labored. It all depends on how much progress he'll be making during the off season but at this point I (mind you, I'm not so technically inclined so please take my opinion with a grain of salt) predict that if he could manage to squeeze a second jump in after 4T that would be a double at best.

But I would love to HOPE for the best program and 4T-3Lo or 4T-3T would be fantastic (well, who doesn't think so? )

One thing that I'm curious about, in case he moves on to a more physically demanding program jump-wise, is whether Morozov will try to squeeze in a more "slow (a.k.a. resting) passage" in the middle. I just watched Joubert, Lambiel, and Verner's skating in the free @ 07 Worlds, and they (especially Verner) took more rest in different parts of their programs than Daisuke.

One thing that really impressed me about Daisuke's free this past season is how he maintained the dynamism and the flow throughout in this very physically demanding program, but if he wants to maintain the intricacy of his steps, improve his spins, and incorporate two quads all in the same program, then somehow a little more rest will be necessary than there is in the Phantom prog, or he'll be out of stamina towards the end...only a small choreographical teaser just before the step sequence (as in Phantom) won't be enough, I think.

So, including more slow passages yet maintaining the dynamic flow, I think this balace will be something Morozov should carefully work out for Daisuke.

...every time I write something on the technical side of fs I feel I'm being arrogant; I know I'm still a noob Don't be harsh on me...

Daisuke can land beautiful 4T-3T combos, he's done it in competition in the past, for instance at the 2005 Worlds in Moscow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jZ9uY0edME
(Gosh, is this program a masterpiece or what?? you have to feel for him skating with an injury though, it looks so painful!)

I'm sure he could bring it back into his programs, I know he's landed it easily in practice this past season - or at least at some point during the winter.
His 3-3 combos are also to die for in practice and if they don't always look so clean and easy in competition, it's rather a matter of nerves (as ever so often!).
And boy do I hope he can nail the 4F!!

That said, I totally agree that he might need a few "resting spots" in his LP, in order to land more complicated jumps and make the whole look more intense.

Hi, MissC, welcome to this forum.
Yeah, you're absolutely right. I know Daisuke's done 4T-3T at Moscow, however, this is just my expectation and I'd like to see more his progress for next season. Because his jump was getting better every competitions and also loop jump after skate Canada 2006. Actually, according to basic score, 4T-3T is 13 point and 4T-3Lo is 14 point. This only one point makes a big difference at free program to get a gold medal which he desire. About spin, I agree with you. By the way, I heard that Daisuke is practicing 4A from Japanese newspaper, Wooh! I think that this is not practical yet, but it proceed to make some kinds of jump more smoothly.

Hi, champs, you have a good opinion. so, pls do not hesitate to talk about technical side.
To everyone, I'd like to know your opinion about Daisuke's new program more, pls join us, thank you.

こんちには、MissCさん、ようこそ。
高橋選手はモスクワで4Ｔ-3Ｔやっていましたね。でも4T-3Loは私の期待なので、次のシーズンは新たなる進化を見たいものです。高橋選手のジャンプは競技をするごとに良くなっていったし、スケートカナダの後はループジャンプも良くなりましたね。実際のところ、基礎点が4T-3T は13点だし4T-3Loは14点なので、高橋選手の望む金メダルを取るのには1点差は大きいと思うわけです。スピンについてはおっしゃる通りですね。
ところで、日本の新聞によれば高橋選手は4Aを練習しているそうですが、実践的ではなくても、ある種のジャンプの進化には良いようですね。

champsさん、良い意見ですので、技術的なこともどんどん書き込んで下さいね。
皆さんの高橋選手の新プログラムについてのご意見お待ちしています。

I don't think Daisuke needs to do a 4T-3Lo, 4T-3T would be fine. None of the top guys except for Oda does a 3Lo as the back end of a combination, and even if the base value for a loop combo is one point higher, it'd be better to do a 4T-3T well and get higher GOE. Has anyone done a 4T-3Lo in competition, by the way? I don't think I've ever seen one.

I think even more than adding two quads to the LP, he needs to add a 4-3 combo to the SP. We've seen that even with only one quad, his jumping layout from this season's LP is competitive with Joubert and three quads. It's the SP he's losing points in without a quad.

I read about him practicing a 4A (and 4Lo) too, but it doesn't sound like he's aiming to do it in competition. (His coach said that experiencing the speed of a quad in the air will help his triples.) I do hope he can perfect the 4F, however. The flip is his best jump, so it seems more feasible than 4A or 4Lo. Hopefully he won't injure himself practicing all those quads, though; I'd hate to see him end up like Takeshi Honda (who supposedly landed quads of every type of jump in practice, but look where the injuries got him).

Calliope, I'm also worried about injuries, all these quads are a serious strain on the body. I agree with you that he should put the 4T-3T back in the SP too.

Leode, I know a 3L is worth more than a 3T, I was just asking if Dai is actually capable of putting a 3L after the 4T (= has anyone ever seen him do that?) - because I don't think I've ever heard of any skater doing it, but I know that Dai's jumping abilities are one of a kind.
(Moreover, if it's just about base value being higher, there's no 3T at all in the jumps setting you wrote down - it's worth more than a 2L! )

Whatever he decides (and I hope that HE decides, not Morozov), I hope that he can stay as consistent as this past season - I still can't believe how far he's come!

Hi, Calliope, MissC,
You're right both of you. 4T-3Lo is not practical jump for Daisuke, he's never done before. It's just my expectation. I know that he has more clean 4T-3T, however, this one should use for SP. Regarding to practical consideration, it would be higher risk to use comination jump like 4T-3T after 4F(if it is possible) for FP. And I think that single jump 4F and 4T would be better. It is very difficult choice single jumps or combination jump. It depends on his stamina.

I hate to see that all skaters injure by practice or performance for quad jump, not only Daisuke. Takeshi Honda is a great skater and he is one of my favorite quad jumpers. Now he is supporting Daisuke with technical side, it is very delightful news for me.

Hi, champs,
You have a good point. If Daisuke jump quads two tims, Morozov would choreograph slow part for rest which it needs.

Hi, everyone,
I guess that this is very interesting topic, pls give us your thought, thank you.

According to Morozov's interview, here is my updating expectation jump elements for Daisuke's new programs. Morozov commented about 3A, "I will make a program for Daisuke including with second 3A after 2 min."

Short Program Total jump basic score : 23.8
1)4T, 3A-2T, 3Lz

2006-2007 season "Concert for Violin and Orchestra"
Short Program Total Jump basic score : 23.0
1)3F+3T, 3A, 3Lz

Free Program　Total jump basic score：62.91
1)The first half--4S, 3A-2T, 3Lz
2)Latter half--3A, 3F-3Lo, 3Lz-2T-2T, 3S, 3T

2006-2007 season Free "Phantom of the Opera"
Free Program　Total Jump basic score：61.71
1)The first half--4T, 3A, 3A+2T
2)Latter half--3F-3T, 3Lz-2T-2T, 3Lo, 3F, 3S

If he do "Romeo & Juliet" by P. I. Tchaikovski", I think this jump components fits the music. Anyway, I can't wait to see new program on Oct. 6, 2007.

At 06-07 Season's SP, It's 3F-3T, not 3F-2T.
Anyway, at Short Program, Axel jump, one combination, and solo jump with steps are necessary, IMO.
So I think combo will be 4T-3T or 3F-3L(3T), and 3A & 3Lz are same.

And my opinions for Free's jumps are-
4S, 4T, 3A-2T, 3Lz
3A, 3F-3T, 3Lz-2T-2L, 3Lo, 3F
I know it would be hard for him, but Daisuke said he will do two quad in free, and I think he does 3L better thank 3T for solo jump

Thanks for your comment and the notice, yerina. I corrected it.

Quote :

And my opinions for Free's jumps are-
4S, 4T, 3A-2T, 3Lz
3A, 3F-3T, 3Lz-2T-2L, 3Lo, 3F
I know it would be hard for him, but Daisuke said he will do two quad in free, and I think he does 3L better thank 3T for solo jump

Wow, quad twice 4S and 4T!! It is very hard for Daisuke! I think last jump 3F is not needed by Zayak's rule. So, here is your score without 3F: Very high score!! I hope he can do it.

Total Jump basic Score: 66.96
4S, 4T, 3A-2T, 3Lz
3A, 3F-3T, 3Lz-2T-2L, 3Lo

Daisuke said that he will do quad twice, however, this means he will do quads twice in free or twice in short and free. Anyway, we can see which means on Oct. 6th, 2007.

I don't know if Daisuke will do quad in SP... there are only three jumps and it can be dangerous miss one of them...
So I think SP will be:
3F-3T, 3A, 3Lz
like last year SP...

I think he will do twice quad in Free Program... it could be important propose two different quad (4S and 4T ), but it can be very hard for Daisuke! So, in my opinion he will do twice 4T...
4T-3(2)T, 4T, 3A-2T
3A, 3Lz-2T-2Lo, 3F, 3Lo, 3S.

...but it's difficult to imagine new programs... I don't know...

Anyway, I can't wait to see them!!!

Hmmm, very difficult issue.

Leode, I think I've never seen someone performing 3A in combo in SP or maybe it's just my lack of knowledge.... Is that OK? If it's OK, Leode's idea is nice for SP.

Regarding LP, considering why Dai-chan practice 3F+3Lo combination he will do 4T. (I think he wants to avoid committing the same mistake(?? Sorry Dai-chan!) of Olympics.) Then it comes 2 quads in LP.

How about this?

4S, 4T, 3A+2T
3A, 3F+3Lo, 3Lz+2T+2Lo, 3Lz(or 3F), 3S

Oh! Very difficult!! But actually I'd rather like to see his Level 4 Clst more than 2 qauds.
We will be able to see it in one and half week!!

After I wrote above comment, I got an idea 3A+3T.

How about...
4S, 3A+3T, 3Lz
3A, 3F+3Lo, 3Lz+2T+2Lo, 3F, 3S

It is the first time for me to think about such thing seriously. I thank DTFF to give me such opportunity!

Wow, this topic is interesting more and more!

Quote :

I've never seen someone performing 3A in combo in SP or maybe it's just my lack of knowledge.... Is that OK?

Before new scoring system, many skaters did 3A in combo. But for now, it's a loss to do that for basic score. Because if anyone does 3A in combo, then he must perform Axel in double. I think that's the reason why skaters don't performing 3A in combo at SP.
ex) 3A-3T, 3Lz, 2A : Basic score 21.0
3F-3T, 3Lz, 3A : Basic score 23.0

Quote :

4S, 3A+3T, 3Lz
3A, 3F+3Lo, 3Lz+2T+2Lo, 3F, 3S

In addition, in the men's free skating, there're available max 8 triple jumps and must not perform three kinds of triple each twice. (I don't know how to express it.. sorry for my poor english )
So according to second miyu's wrote, one combination may be 3-2, IMO.

Quote :

...but it's difficult to imagine new programs... I don't know...

Ah, me too... why??
Maybe the last season's programs are so impact in our heart?
But I believe Daisuke will peforming wonderful Romeo!

Leode, thanks for comment!
btw, what's the Zayak's rule?
Sorry, I know it's a silly question, but my skating fan careers are short...

Thank you so much yerina for telling me why skaters avoid doing 3A in combo and correcting my mistake!!
Yeah I understand now. I think Zayak's rule is what you've told me, skaters can do only 2 kinds of jumps twice in one program.

Quote :

But I believe Daisuke will peforming wonderful Romeo!

Yes!! So do I!!

I've seen the result of Thomas at Nebelhorn-Trophy. (What happend to him???)
http://www.deu-event.de/results/Nebelhorn_2007/NT07_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

His jumps in LP:
2T 3T 3Lz
1A 1A 3Lo 3F 3S

I guess they would have been...
4T in combo 4T 3Lz
3A in combo 3A 3Lo 3F 3S

It seemed he would perform 5 jumps in a row in latter half of LP like Dai-chan.
What do you think Dai-chan will have to do 2 quads too? Or he will be able to get more points from other elements and PCS so he won't need to have 2 quads???

Anyway we can see in a week!! Go Dai-chan!! We are always with you!!

Hi, yerina and miyu. Thanks for your comments.

miyu wrote:

I think Zayak's rule is what you've told me, skaters can do only 2 kinds of jumps twice in one program.

Yeah, it is right. If you are interested in Zayak, pls look bellow site. The Zayak's rule was from American Figure Skater Elaine Zayak.

Elaine Zayak
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_Zayak

Yeah, I see. Thanks miyu and Leode!

OMG
I saw his SP.
His jumps were clean -little shaking but no miss-, steps are more faster, and the program is nice.
Verner, what did you do at free??

Quote :

I guess they would have been...
4T in combo 4T 3Lz
3A in combo 3A 3Lo 3F 3S

Wow, really!
And 3A twice at second half!!!
If he perform clean FS, he could gain much points!

How much longer is Daisuke going to be using his current short, free and exhibition programs? For example, will he use the current ones for the upcoming Japan Open?

nipponophile wrote:

How much longer is Daisuke going to be using his current short, free and exhibition programs? For example, will he use the current ones for the upcoming Japan Open?

Most likely he will keep those programs for the Japan Open. It's only a few weeks away which is probably not enough time to choreograph all new programs. Dai needs a vacation before he starts working on new programs!