About Daisuke's FS at 2008 worlds

Hi,everyone,I am a new fan of figure skating and not so knowledgeable on this sport .Daisuke is my favorite skater among all men.
Here I have a question about Daisuke's performance at 2008 worlds.It is said that his last jump combo in free skate was invalid and had no value at all, which cost him at least 8 points and took away a medal.Here I wanna know why it was like that? As I'm new for figure skating ,I don't know much about the rules.Could somebody tell me why the jump had no value?
Maybe it's a stupid question But I've been confused about that for a long time

Hi dilemma!

Yes, the figure skating rules are really complicated... I also didn't know it well before.

Well, I will try to explain. But I'm not sure you will be able to understand what I'm saying because my English isn't good enough. In that case please help me someone!!


It was due to the violation of the number of jump combos.
A skater can do 3 combo(or seq) jumps at maximam in his FP. OTOH only 2 kinds of jumps (triples and quads) are allowed to be done twice and the one out of two has to be done as jump combination or sequence.

In case a skater jump a certain kind of jump which he has already jumped as solo and fails to add a second jump in order to make it as combo or sequence, the jump is judged as jump sequence. (You can see it as "+SEQ" in protcols.)

Please see Dai-chan's protcol of Worlds FP. You can find "4T<+SEQ" on the second 4T and "3A+SEQ" on the second 3A. Though his second 4T and second 3A weren't actually jump combination or sequence, those jumps were counted as jump sequences by judges. And then he did 3F+3T. So at this point according the rule he already did 3 combo(or seq) jumps. The last jump was 3Lz+2T. This was counted as the 4th combo. The 4th combo was an invalid element so he couldn't get any points from it.

These rules are really difficult... I suppose skaters learn a lot about them but when they are fighting on the ice under such big pressure it would be really hard to sense what they should do next immediately. You can imagine it easily.

I think (or is it my imagination?? I'm not sure ... ) Dai-chan said that at 08 GPF he wondered whether he could add 3T to 3F after he changed the first 4T to 3T. Indeed, he could add 3T in that case. And the last 3Lz+2T combo was OK. (Am I correct?? )

Perhaps to do every planed jump cleanly is very important. But it is hard to do especially for a skater who attempt very difficult jump elements like Dai-chan.

GO DAI-CHAN!!!

Thank you very much for the explanation,miyu,these rules are really difficult to understand.Although I still can't understand it fully,I'll spend some time studying them....
Dai-Chan's FP was arranged with so many difficult jumps that it couldn't hardly be clean.But he may challenge something more complicated next season,I'm looking forward to a clean FP in the new season...

You come up with a very interesting topic, dilemma.

miyu has given an excellent explanation, I have not much to add.

Here's a link to the protocols for those who are interested:
http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2008/WC08_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

I've seen the program live, and I remember thinking after the second (failed) quad toe "This isn's right", but I was a nervous wrack at the moment, and couldn't count the rest of the jumps.

I can only imagine how the skaters feel under the pressure, especially when things don’t go exactly as planned. They have to adjust their programs in the process, to remember all the jumps they've done or failed.

I think, a skater needs a plan "B" (and "C") to manage under the circumstances. My guess is, (and I'm speculating here), Daisuke didn't have a plan "B" for the Worlds. He and Morozov couldn't agree on a number of quads in the free program, their working relationship'd started to 'shake' by the time, and this would result in a "ah, do whatever you want" attitude of the coach.

Or, after the 4CC, they were sure things would go just fine and there would be no need for a plan "B". Or there was no time to discuss this, with Morozov being too busy with his other 276536856 pupils. Anyways, I've been really... unhappy about this issue for a while. But, on the other hand, it was a valuable lesson Daisuke learned, and I'm sure he'll be very careful with his program's layout in the future. He's grown up now, and he's smart. He knows that from now on he's got one less person to back him up.

NB: Nobunari Oda is known for doing too many jump combos and sequences in his free programs.

dilemma wrote:

Although I still can't understand it fully,I'll spend some time studying them....

Please don't hesitate ask us, dilemma.

hsuhs wrote:

Here's a link to the protocols for those who are interested:

Oh thank you! I forgot to add the link to the protocols...

Yesterday I thought about this issue again. And I found that the result of GPF 07 heavily affected Dai-chan's Worlds FP.

GPF07 FP
3T (He planned 4T) 4T 3A 3A+2T+2Lo 3F 2S 3Lo 3Lz+2T

Worlds08 FP
4T 4T<+SEQ 3A 3A+SEQ 3F+3T 3S 3Lo 3Lz+2T

I found the interview video just after he finished GPF FP. Dai-chan said like this.

"I got upset after I opend up the first toe. I couldn't figure out what I should do so I made mistake in the step afterward." (Dai-chan skated toward the wrong direction and came back after the 1st jump. You can see how much he got upset.) "I couldn't add 3T after 3F due to the rule. So I was thinking I had to do something for it and where I should do throughout the performance and I couldn't concentrate on my performance."

In fact he misunderstood at that time. He could have added 3T to 3F without violating the rule. Of course he realized it later with calm head, I think. And people around him might have said to him "One more combo! That's what you needed for GPF's gold."
He looked pretty frustrated after GPF so I think he regreted the mistake very much.

And here is my imaginary story. ( ) At Worlds 08 he might have thought like "This time I need to do 3F+3T and one more combo, maybe 3Lz+2T like GPF." udnder the urgent situation. He mixed up his experience of GPF with what he was doing at that time, didn't he? But unfortunately he didn't opend up 4T at Worlds and his failed 4T was judged as 4T<+SEQ, not 3T.


What do you think???

hsuhs wrote:

Daisuke learned, and I'm sure he'll be very careful with his program's layout in the future. He's grown up now, and he's smart.

Yes! Yes!! I believe so!! Go Dai-chan!!!


Oh I'm sorry for my long post!
(Have we already discussed about it? If so I'm really sorry. )

About that 3T, seconds later corrected with a 4T, in GPF07 FP. TAT (who commented that night) praised Daisuke to the skies, for that She said that was a rare thing.

Quote :

At Worlds 08 he might have thought like "This time I need to do 3F+3T and one more combo, maybe 3Lz+2T like GPF."

Sounds plausible to me. I wish Daisuke didn't add that 2T and won the bronze, but he did.

OT: I wonder how his 3Lz+3L is doing. Is it worth adding to his new FS? Maybe not.

Quote :

About that 3T, seconds later corrected with a 4T, in GPF07 FP. TAT (who commented that night) praised Daisuke to the skies, for that She said that was a rare thing.

Wow! TT said so? Yes, he was very brave!!!

Quote :

OT: I wonder how his 3Lz+3L is doing. Is it worth adding to his new FS? Maybe not.

Last night the TV program "Oshare-Izm" showed his training scene at Kansai Univ and he jumped 3F+3Lo in it.
I have no idea about whether he intend to put it in his new FP or not.
Maybe he can do something like 2A+3T by doing 3F+3Lo, can't he?.... Oh I don't know well.... and it will depend on all other elements (like 2 quads or 1 quad) too.

miyu wrote:

TT said so?

Yes, she talks a LOT during FS broadcasts (too much, sometimes ) Since Daisuke's a former pupil of hers, she loves to comment on the difference between "back then" and "now". She's said, for instance, that his spins have improved drastically.

Quote :

Last night the TV program "Oshare-Izm" showed his training scene at Kansai Univ and he jumped 3F+3Lo in it.
...
Maybe he can do something like 2A+3T by doing 3F+3Lo, can't he?.... Oh I don't know well.... and it will depend on all other elements (like 2 quads or 1 quad) too.

Well, a 3F+3Lo combo is even better, since Daisuke's 3F is very good. He could still keep his 3A+2T+2Lo combo in the second half of the program though, because it's worth a lot (given his 3rd combo in the FS involves a quad).