New scores for season 2008/2009

I found this new communication on ISU site.
It's about "Scale of Values, Guidelines for marking GOE and Levels for the season 2008-2009".
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=934

There's something new.
The 3A and all the quads have an higher score than last season. 3A was 7.5 and now it's 8.2, 4T was 9.0 and now 9.8... but also GOE changed! Last season if you had -3GOE on your 3A you lost 3 points; next season if you have -3GOE you will lose 4.2 points on 3A or 4.8 points on a quad!
So, if you try difficult jumps you can have a great score, but you will take a big risk!
Maybe ISU wants that only skilled and sure skaters try these jumps, so that we can see more clean programs...
I'd like to know what the skaters think about this new scores...
There's something new also about spins and level 3 and 4 in step sequences...

glorydave wrote:

Maybe ISU wants that only skilled and sure skaters try these jumps, so that we can see more clear programs...

That’s exactly the impression I got from it. I don't see how the new rules encourage trying tough elements. Looks like they don't. A quadless winner can still take it all. Why take a risk when you don't have to?

Thanks for posting this, glorydave! I read through it and I also saw that they've made it harder to get a level 4 on a spiral and easier to get a level 4 on the step sequences. They didn't address the double penalty for underrotated jumps...maybe when they have their official meeting in June. It seems like they have addressed telegraphing jump takeoffs too.

hsuhs wrote:

I don't see how the new rules encourage trying tough elements. Looks like they don't. A quadless winner can still take it all.

They should have made the GOEs the same on both sides meaning that an exceptional quad that gets +3GOE should get an additional 4.8 points instead of just an additional 3 points. A mere 0.8 increase in the base value doesn't make the reward equal to the risk which doesn't seem fair.

On the other hand, I think that right now, they are trying to encourage consistency. The guys with consistent quads and two triple axels are going to be the ones that benefit. This is what Evan Lysacek was preparing for. He's been putting the quad-triple in both his programs for the last season in a half trying to get it consistent in competition. So it could certainly pay off for him next season.

The goal here is probably to ensure that a sloppy quad complete with fall doesn't end up being worth more than a clean triple. I know a lot of fans were sick of seeing skaters fall on the quad and still win over someone with no quad who was 100% clean.

swandie wrote:

The guys with consistent quads and two triple axels are going to be the ones that benefit.

That's what I thought too. But I've checked the stats for this past season. And it looks like a clean quad plus 2 clean triple axels in the mens top 8 is a very rare thing. Guess who's the only skater capable of pulling off such a trick? The bad news is, this particular skill doesn't guarantee a win (see the GPF).

Here's my little list for the top 8 mens LPs in the 2007-2008 season.

*"clean"= jumps or jump combos with a 0 or positive GOE,
**"bad"=jumps or jump combos with a negative GOE
*** second "bad 3A" or "bad 4T" in the same program means in fact "3A+SEQ" or "4T+SEQ" with a negative GOE
****"won"= not the LP per se, but the whole event

Daisuke:
SA: clean 4T, bad 3A, clean 3A+2T <------won
NHK: bad 4T, clean 3A, clean 3A+2T+2Lo<--------won
GPF: clean 4T, clean 3A, clean 3A+2T+2Lo
4CC: clean 4T, clean 4T+2T, clean 3A, clean 3A+2T+2Lo<-------won
WCH: clean 4T, bad 4T, clean 3A, bad 3A

Tomas Verner:
Finlandia Trophy: bad 4T <----won
TEB: bad 4T, clean 3A
NHK: clean 4T, clean 3A
ECH: bad 4T, clean 3A <----won
WCH: bad 4T, bad 4T, bad 3A

Brian Joubert:
SC: bad 4T, bad 3A<-----won
ECH: bad 4T, bad 3A
WCH: clean 4T, clean 3A

Stephane Lambiel:
CoC: bad 4T, bad 4T,
CoR: bad 4T+2T, bad 4T
GPF: bad 3A, bad 4T <------ won
ECH: clean 4T+2T+2Lo
WCH: bad 3A, bad 4T+2T, bad 4T

Kevin van der Perren:
SC: clean 4T, clean 3A
TEB: clean 3A
GPF: bad 4T
ECH: bad 4T
WCH: clean 3A+2T, clean 3A

Johnny Weir:
CoC: clean 3A+3T, clean 3A<------ won
CoR: clean 3A+3T, bad 3A<------won
GPF: bad 3A, clean 3A+3T
WCH: bad 4T, clean 3A, clean 3A+2T

Evan Lysacek:
SA: bad 4T, clean 3A, bad 3A+2T
CoC: bad 4T, bad 3A, bad 3A+3T
GPF: clean 4T+3T, bad 3A, bad 3A+2T
4CC: bad 4T, clean 3A, bad 3A

Jeffrey Buttle:
SC: clean 3A+3T
CoR: clean 3A, bad 3A
4CC: clean 3A+2T,
WCH: clean 3A+2T+2Lo, clean 3A<------won
----------------------------------------------------
Additions and corrections are welcome

Wow...you're right, hsuhs. I think they're trying to reward clean and complete skating. At the same time, they're discouraging skaters from trying the more difficult elements by only upping the -GOE values. That's not fair! For every other jump, the +GOE values are higher than the -GOE values. The reward should at least equal the risk (so +4.8 for an exceptional quad). That way, skaters won't be completely discouraged from trying a second triple axel and/or a quad or two but the reductions promote consistency.

I hope I'm making sense....

But someone might argue, swandie, that the base values for quads are high enough now to justify the risk.

I think, the issue is that everybody (the skaters, the coaches, the fans) is searching for a Holy Grail, a recipe for success. It might be a certain composition of the jumps, or a perfect balance between the tech and the choreo, or the excellence in the non-jump elements, or god knows what else. But maybe there's no generic recipe? Take for instance worlds last 3 winners (Lambiel, Joubert, Buttle). They don't have much in common, do they? And each one has flaws, no one is perfect.

I thought Dai's plans for the upcoming season included a quad in the SP, and two 3A as well as two quads in the LP.

hsuhs wrote:

But someone might argue, swandie, that the base values for quads are high enough now to justify the risk.

Ah, true. That's actually seems to be the majority argument. But it's only slightly higher than before while the risk seems to be much higher than before which is why I see it as discouraging. Ultimately, the quad is only worth 0.8 more than before when the skaters do it well but skaters will lose a factor of 0.4 more for each level of -GOE. ...well now that I've said that, maybe the risk is not as high as I was perceiving it to be. A fall on a quad will cost 1.2 more points than it did this past season which can be made up with the changes made in the values of steps and spins. I do think though that they're trying to make it so that a bad quad/triple axel with a fall is not worth more than an "easier" triple that is exceptional.

Yea, there isn't going to be a system that makes everyone happy. Someone will always complain about something. COP is only about 5 years old while 6.0 had been around for decades. The tweaking will be continuous for a while yet.

The fans who hate COP are going to hate it no matter what changes are made. Someone is always going to say that the system is taking away the artistry. Personally, I prefer COP to 6.0. Ordinals were 100% subjective and I could not understand how they worked. I like that each element is scored individually and that there is more movement in the standings (especially in ice dancing-where "wait your turn" has all but been eliminated). The off-season is long and so fans need something to discuss. The COP vs. 6.0 debate keeps people talking through the months where there are no big competitions. I kind of like it...

Quote :

I thought Dai's plans for the upcoming season included a quad in the SP, and two 3A as well as two quads in the LP.

I remember that was mentioned somewhere in the forum but I'm not sure if that was something that Dai actually said or something that someone here assumed as the next "logical" step for him. It does make sense though.

Sorry for the long post.....I have a ton of time on my hands....

swandie wrote:

Personally, I prefer COP to 6.0.

Me too.

Hi guys! Thank you all and especially hsuhs for the very interesting list about the jumps in 07-08.
Dai-chan was the most consistant and succeeded skater without doubt. (But unluckily he couldn't win at GPF and WC...... )

hsuhs wrote:

I thought Dai's plans for the upcoming season included a quad in the SP, and two 3A as well as two quads in the LP.

Ummm. Now I can't see any necessity of 2 quads in FP. See hushs's list. Noone can land clean 2 quads except Dai-chan ( ) last season. Someone who has some difficulties in other elements will have to try 2 quads but Dai-chan is an all-rounder wtih great artistry. The second quad would be too risky to try. I think SP with a quad (4-2 or 4-3) and FP with a quad and 2 solid 3As is better for him. He definitely has to win next World Championships!!!

swandie wrote:

But it's only slightly higher than before while the risk seems to be much higher than before which is why I see it as discouraging.

Perhaps ISU wants to eliminate the skaters who try quads to get higher points even though he knows he can't land it.
But I'm afraid the new score discourages young skaters who are practicing quad jump now from challenging them at games...

Very interesting topic everyone. I really appreciate your insights into this.

Quote :

Someone who has some difficulties in other elements will have to try 2 quads but Dai-chan is an all-rounder wtih great artistry. The second quad would be too risky to try. I think SP with a quad (4-2 or 4-3) and FP with a quad and 2 solid 3As is better for him.

I really start to feel this way too. This sounds like a feasible and smart enough strategy for him for next year. Sometimes I feel like Daisuke doesn't give his artistry enough credit though. It sometimes feels like he places more emphasis than he needs to on the quads for his ability to win. He has so much more than just this though with footwork, spins, and so on and the judges seem more willing than in the past to reward this (case in point, Jeff's results at Worlds).

After I said all this, I still respect very much his guts and his wanting to upgrade his technical difficulty so much. He's simply trying to have the whole technical + artistic package that so many of the champions before him had (Yagudin, Plushenko, Lambiel even, etc.).

Hi there, long time no see.

ISU press release of June 20, 2008, mentions that they decided to reduce number of elements. It must be about proposal 274 in that number of spins from 4 to 3. The 3 spins must be a combination, a flying and a one position. Regarding one position spin, score differs to position type from this season and the highest level 4 score is put for layback and camel...(sit spin is lower than them)

Hope we can enjoy Daisuke's mega-super layback spin aiming at Level 4!

The ISU press release is too brief and it does not mention about proposal 166 (calculation of jump combination/sequence) nor 302 (skating order draw). Personally I wish proposal 166 is approved because it should make combination jumps so exiting.

Hi Roko! How have you been? Thank you for the information.

Roko wrote:

ISU press release of June 20, 2008, mentions that they decided to reduce number of elements. It must be about proposal 274 in that number of spins from 4 to 3.

Sounds good for Dai-chan!!
But at the same time I wonder why ISU have to change rules so often.... You remember that Dai-chan made efforts in order to acquire low sit-position last year.

Roko wrote:

Hope we can enjoy Daisuke's mega-super layback spin aiming at Level 4!

Yaaaaay!!!

New communication from ISU at the beginning of July:
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=980

"Senior both Men and Ladies: maximum of three (3) spins, one of which must be a spin
combination, one a flying spin and one a spin with only one position."

"According to the 52nd ISU Congress decisions, definition of a sit position in Spins, both Singles and
Pairs, was amended as follows: “lower part of the buttocks not higher than the upper part of the knee
of the skating leg, the upper part of the skating leg parallel to the ice”."

It also talks about Flip/Lutz wrong edge, but this is not Dai's problem!

Here you can find "Guidelines for marking GOE of Single/Pair Elements (positive aspects)":
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=981

glorydave wrote:

It also talks about Flip/Lutz wrong edge, but this is not Dai's problem!

But it is. My guess is, once upon a time, Dai's lutz jumps were flutzes. He's probably worked hard to re-learn the technique. Now, his takes-off are OK, but if you watch them in slow-mo, from a good angle, you'll notice what sometimes is going on there.

Even Tarasova, who says so many good and kind things about Daisuke in every broadcast, has commented on his lutz once. She said something along the lines "I see a tiny change of edge at the end of the blade, but it's no big deal".

This tiny change of edge has never resulted in an 'e' in the protocols, but from now on, it can potentially get him a '!'. Doesn't have to, but it's possible.

Thank you for the links, glorydave.
I haven't seen "Guidelines for marking GOE of Single/Pair Elements (positive aspects)".

Step Sequences
1. good energy and execution --- Yes!
2. good speed or acceleration during sequence --- Yes!
3. good timing according to the music --- Yes!
4. highlights the character of the program --- Yes!
5. superior control and commitment of whole body to accuracy of steps --- Yes! (or might be not enough occasionally)
6. creativity and originality --- Yes!

Then Dai-chan will be able to get +3GOE easily for his step sequences!!

How about jump elements?
I haven't know there has been such evaluation point, No.3 'delay in rotation'. I'm sure he is a 'delay in rotation' jumper.
No.4 (great height and/or distance) and 6(superior flow in and out) are Yes, I think.
Does he have 'superior extension on landing' (No.5)? (maybe sometimes yes and sometimes no.)
And thinking about No.1 and 2, Dai-chan needs some more complex entrances into jumps??

hsuhs wrote:

But it is. My guess is, once upon a time, Dai's lutz jumps were flutzes. He's probably worked hard to re-learn the technique. Now, his takes-off are OK, but if you watch them in slow-mo, from a good angle, you'll notice what sometimes is going on there.

Yah, I know some people say Dai-chan's lutz is flutz. But I believe it's OK even though the angle of the blade isn't so deep. I hope he won't get any '!' in the coming season.

Thanks for the head up, glorydave! It's very interesting topic.

miyu wrote:

Yah, I know some people say Dai-chan's lutz is flutz. But I believe it's OK even though the angle of the blade isn't so deep. I hope he won't get any '!' in the coming season.

I agree with you, miyu. I think it doesn't matter Daisuke's 3Lz is a flutz. The most important thing is what he's gonna jump all clean in SP and FS. I believe he can do it!!

Thank you for the links, glorydave!


I'm not an expert of jumps at all, so I have rarely thought Daisuke's lutz was flutz. Sometimes, especially when he is tired at FS, his lutz seemed flat
at the very last moment, but I never felt it was flutz.
In the video "eye" at DOI, his lutz was perfectly corrected, IMO.
I think he has been working on jumps with all his might over the past 2years, and is in the process of bearing fruit. Hope to see him jump more beautifully
and perfectlly this season.

And it's happy to hear spins are reduced to 3!!
He talks himself never liked spins, and now, he doesn't have to use his valuable energy for 1 more spins. This leads him to do more elaborate transitions
and put remaining power for the consistency of jumps

Miyu, you did an interesting analysis!

I agree with you about Step Sequences... Maybe sometimes the commitment of whole body is not enough (for judges)... but when I watch his CiSt in "eye" I believe he can get a great GOE!

About jumps, it's more difficult to say... Maybe Daisuke hasn't difficult or creative entries, but a lot of his jumps are unexpected... there's no preparation...
At the same time, watching "eye", I think that his jumps are gorgeous, but maybe ha can add something more, for example regarding steps before 3Lz... but maybe the choreography is not finished yet and he has to work on it...
(sorry for my english, I know my phrases are not really correct, but I hope you can understand...)

Uhm... I've never thought Daisuke has some problems with his Lutz...

GO DAISUKE!!!

I've checked the protocol. The lutz I was talking about, the one, Tarasova describes as having a 'tiny change of edge' in the Russian broadcast, got a +1.20 GOE:

http://www.isufs.org/results/gpusa07/sa07_Men_SP_Scores.pdf

Just as much as Daisuke's triple axel there.

The Japanese broadcast of the same event was interesting too. You see Morozov smiling in the kiss & cry, he looks so happy and satisfied with the marks, but, as he's leaving K&C together with Daisuke and Utako, he approaches a woman (a Japan skating federation representative?) and asks her 'Who is the tech specialist?'

I guess, Nikolai wasn't happy after all, as he'd expected a higher score. I bet he was mad about Daisuke's straight line steps getting only level 1.

As for myself, I don't get judge # 6' PCS. Did he/ she actually see the program?